HELSINKI, Finland (CNN) -- At least seven people were reported killed when an 18-year-old gunman opened fire at a school in Finland Wednesday, in a shooting that appeared to have been planned out in graphic videos posted on Internet sharing site YouTube.
An image from a video posted on YouTube by "Sturmgeist89."
Medical officials told CNN affiliate MTV that the headmistress of the school in Tuusula, near Helsinki, was among the dead. It was not clear if the gunman was included in the fatalities.
The shooting, believed to be the first of its kind in Finland's history, was claimed to be the work of Pekka-Eric Auvinen, who has also published a manifesto demanding war on the "weak-minded masses" and pledged to die for his cause.
YouTube appeared to have removed the videos, many of them featuring Nazi imagery, shortly after the incident.
The school involved in the shooting was identified as Jokela High, attended by more than 400 students, aged between 12 and 18.
A video posted on YouTube earlier Wednesday, by a user identified as "Sturmgeist89", was titled "Jokela High School Massacre - 11/7/2007."
The video showed a picture of the school which then disintergrated to reveal an image of a man resembling Auvinen against a red background, pointing a gun at the screen.
The clip is accompanied by the track "Stray Bullet", by rock band KMFDM, whose lyrics were also quoted by Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, the students behind the Columbine High School massacre of 1999.
Sturmgeist89 also posted videos of the same person shooting an apple in a wood with a handgun, as well as clips from the Nazi Nuremburg rallies.
Jarkko Sipila, a reporter with MTV, told CNN that the shooting happened around noon Finnish time (1000 GMT) in the quiet town around 50 kilometers (30 miles) north of Helsinki.
Here is the original video that appeared on YouTube (the one good thing about the crap site LiveLeak is that they carry all kind of crap by fascists and racists and other social deviants)
Sipila said some of the pupils had fled to a nearby elementary school while police surrounded and sealed off the high school. Finnish news agency STT carried police comments that they had been fired at.
The Associated Press reported comments from Kim Kiuru, one of the school's teachers, on radio station YLE.
Kiuru described how the headmistress used the public address system around noon to tell pupils to stay in classrooms.
He said he locked his classroom door, then waited in the corridor for more news.
"After that I saw the gunman running with what appeared to be a small-caliber handgun in his hand through the doors towards me, after which I escaped to the corridor downstairs and ran in the opposite direction, " Kiuru said.
The agency reported Kiuru as saying that he saw a woman's body as he fled the school, before telling his pupils to leave the building through the windows.
Sipila said that at least four people in the school had suffered gunshot wounds and that others had been injured by shattered glass.
He added that the gunman is thought to have had a fascination with dictatorial figures such as Hitler and Stalin.
Sipila said that Finland, which has a population of about five million, has around two million firearms, although gun laws are tough. "We do not know where he got it from," he said.
Police are scheduled to give a press conference at around 1500GMT.weazl will publish his "Manifesto". The essay is as follows:
Natural Selector’s Manifesto
How Did Natural Selection Turn Into Idiocratic Selection?
Today the process of natural selection is totally misguided. It has reversed. Human race has been devolving very long time for now. Retarded and stupid , weak-minded people are reproducing more and faster than the intelligent, strong-minded people. Laws protect the retarded majority which selects the leaders of society. Modern human race has not only betrayed its ancestors, but the future generations too. Homo Sapiens, HAH! It is more like a Homo Idioticus to me! When I look at people I see every day in society, school and everywhere... I can’t say I belong to same race as the lousy, miserable, arrogant, selfish human race! No! I have evolved one step above!
Naturality has been discriminated through religions, ideologies, laws and other mass delusion systems. Individual, who is going through his/hers natural power process and trying to live naturally, but is being told that the way he acts or thinks is wrong and stupid, will usually have some reactions which might be considered as "psychological disorders" by the establishment. In reality they are just natural reactions to the disruption of natural power process. They will have some of the following (depending on individual's personality): feelings of inferiority / superiority, hostility, aggression, frustration, depression, self-hatred / hatred towards other people, suicidal / homicidal thought etc... and it is completely normal.
Humans are just a species among other animals and world does not exist only for humans. Death and killing is not a tragedy, it happens in nature all the time between all species. Not all human lives are important or worth saving. Only superior (intelligent, self-aware, strong-minded) individuals should survive while inferior (stupid, retarded, weak-minded masses) should perish.
There is also another solution to the problem: stupid people as slaves and intelligent people as free. What I mean is that they who have free minds, are capable of intelligent existential and philosophical thinking and know what justice is, should be free and rulers... and the robotic masses, they can be slaves since they do not mind it now either and because their minds are on so retarded level. The gangsters that now rule societies, would of course get what they deserve.
Of course there is a final solution too: death of entire human race. It would solve every problem of humanity. The faster human race is wiped out from this planet, the better... no one should be left alive. I have no mercy for the scum of earth, the pathetic human race.
Collective Deindividualization: Totalitarianism & Delusions Of Democracy
Collective deindividualization is a phenomenon where individual will be trained as part of the mindless herd controlled by state, corporation, church or some other organization, group, ideology, religion or mass delusion system and adopt it's rules, morality and codes of conduct. This phenomenon has been familiar in all despotic, authoritarian, totalitarian, monarchist, communist, socialist, nazi, fascist and religious societies troughout history. Also, the modern western democratic republics have the same phenomenon. It is just done so that people will think they are free and don't realize they are being enslaved. Majority of people in society are weak-minded and ignorant retards, masses that act like programmed robots and accept voluntarily slavery. But not me! I am self-aware and realize what is going on in society! I have a free mind! And I choose to be free rather than live like a robot or slave. You can say I have a “god complex”, sure... then you have a “group complex”! Compared to you retarded masses, I am actually godlike.
Totalitarian governments rule people through education system, consumerism, mass media, monopoly on the legitimate use of physical force (police, military) and laws discriminating people who think differently than the majority. Democracy... you think democracy means freedom and justice? You are wrong. Democracy is a dictatorship of the moral majority... and the majority is manipulated and ruled by the state mafia. Modern western democracy has nothing to do with freedom or justice; it is totalitarian and corrupted system. Laws are made over the heads of the people and people are being brainwashed to support the system and connected to the institutional structures immediately after their birth. Societies are being ruled by manipulative and charismatic politicians who only care about the interests of majority, and who do not base their decisions on reason but emotions and feelings of the masses. These masses let the authorities of state to make all the important decisions for them. The masses will get an education, they study, get a job, go to work and vote in elections. They think they are free and don’t criticise or question the system. They have become robots. It is like a constructed mechanism in mind, that leaves little choice for an individual to think, talk and act independently.
Three Kinds Of Humans
There are three kinds of human personality types in this world:
1)individualistic human (3% of the world population)
2)manipulative human (3% of the world population)
3)mass human (94% of the world population)
#1 & #2 type of personalities are intelligent, creative and self-aware. They have chosen bit different paths paths. #3 type of personalities are less intelligent and less creative, weak-minded people controlled by #2 type of personalities. The percentages are only estimations though but are based on Gaussian distribution and history of human race and how humans have organized into societies. And this is the way it has always been ever since humans started to organize into communities.
Another way how to divide people is bit different but is based on the same facts, human nature and history. The division is based on the level of intelligence and quality of mentality:
1)intelligent (3% of the world population)
2)slightly retarded, so called “normal people” or “robots” (94% of the world population)
3)highly retarded, “vegetables” (3% of the world population)
Total War Against Humanity
Hate, Im so full of it and I love it. That is one thing I really love. Some time ago, I used to believe in humanity and I wanted to live a long and happy life... but then I woke up. I started to think deeper and realized things. But it was not easy to become existential... knowing as much as I know has made me unhappy, frustrated and angry. I just can’t be happy in the society or the reality I live. Due to long process of existential thinking, observing the society I live and some other things happened in my life... I have come to the point where I feel nothing but hate against humanity and human race.
Life is just a meaningless coincidence... result of long process of evolution and many several factors, causes and effects. However, life is also something that an individual wants and determines it to be. And I'm the dictator and god of my own life. And me, I have chosen my way. I am prepared to fight and die for my cause. I, as a natural selector, will eliminate all who I see unfit, disgraces of human race and failures of natural selection.
You might ask yourselves, why did I do this and what do I want. Well, most of you are too arrogant and closed-minded to understand... You will proprably say me that I am “insane”, “crazy”, “psychopath”, “criminal” or crap like that. No, the truth is that I am just an animl, a human, an individual, a dissident.
I have had enough. I don’t want to be part of this fucked up society. Like some other wise people have said in the past, human race is not worth fighting for or saving... only worth killing. But... When my enemies will run and hide in fear when mentioning my name... When the gangsters of the corrupted governments have been shot in the streets... When the rule of idioracy and the democratic system has been replaced with justice... When intelligent people are finally free and rule the society instead of the idiocratic rule of majority... In that great day of deliverance, you will know what I want.
Long live the revolution... revolution against the system, which enslaves not only the majority of weak-minded masses but also the small minority of strong-minded and intelligent individuals! If we want to live in a different world, we must act. We must rise against the enslaving, corrupted and totalitarian regimes and overthrow the tyrants, gangsters and the rule of idiocracy. I can’t alone change much but hopefully my actions will inspire all the intelligent people of the world and start some sort of revolution against the current systems. The system discriminating naturality and justice, is my enemy. The people living in the world of delusion and supporting this system are my enemies.
I am ready to die for a cause I know is right, just and true... even if I would lose or the battle would be only remembered as evil... I will rather fight and die than live a long and unhappy life.
And remember that this is my war, my ideas and my plans. Don’t blame anyone else for my actions than myself. Don’t blame my parents or my friends. I told nobody about my plans and I always kept them inside my mind only. Don’t blame the movies I see, the music I hear, the games I play or the books I read. No, they had nothing to do with this. This is my war: one man war against humanity, governments and weak-minded masses of the world! No mercy for the scum of the earth! HUMANITY IS OVERRATED! It's time to put NATURAL SELECTION & SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST back on tracks!
Justice renders to everyone his due.
- Pekka-Eric Auvinen (aka NaturalSelector89, Natural Selector, Sturmgeist89 and Sturmgeist).
I also use pseydonym Eric von Auffoin internationally.
Original article posted here.
82 comments:
Well, we're not that crazy since this is the first time anything like this has happened here. That's once too often though.
The article fails to clarify that most of those two million guns aren't handguns, but sporting rifles and shotguns. They've intentionally (and for a good reason) made obtaining a handgun a real PITA. Unfortunately, this guy had got a letter of recommendation from a local shooting club, and the local authorities had granted a license for the small caliber handgun. They'll probably tighten the rules even further after this dreadful incindent.
"Well, we're not that crazy since this is the first time anything like this has happened here. That's once too often though."
Yeah, the world media doesn't pick up stories such as when a man threw his girlfriend off the roof, killing her, which happened around three weeks ago. And if anybody has even been in downtown Helsinki on a Friday or Saturday night during the early morning hours, watching both men and women pissing in the streets and completely drunk off their asses, they would understand my choice of title.
"watching people pissing in the streets"
Quite pervert to watch...
But the main reason is lacking public toilets which do exist in normal Europeian cities (but not in Helsinki). This does not make people crazy.
I hardly derive any pleasure from watching drunks piss on my way home, nor in dodging piss streaks along the way. Helsinki is not short of public toilets, just short of people who want to piss in them. Sorry.
"I, as a natural selector, will eliminate all who I see unfit, disgraces of human race and failures of natural selection."
I guess since he tried to kill himself, he is included in the "unfit, disgraces of human race and failures of natural selection."
Thoughts and prayers to the families of the victims.
He tried to finnish them off!!!!!!
I think they should out law roofs because roofs kill and while they're at it they can out law pissing too! The liberals are so smart.
"I think they should out law roofs because roofs kill and while they're at it they can out law pissing too! The liberals are so smart."
So you're for Ron Paul, too?
Great!
You can read Eric's 'manifesto' in English here: http://www.kimmo.org/jokela/puretut/Manifesto.doc ,
He was a young man in need of help.
My heart goes out to the families and victims of his vented pain.
Also, here is the unzipped media package (manifest pics
etc) which he uploaded into the Rapidshade hours
before massacre occurred:
http://www.kimmo.org/jokela/ ....
or, here: http://www.kimmo.org/jokela/puretut/
OK grrreat....!
When a tragedy happens, people want to make up their own explanations for it.
-loose gun laws?
-bad social welfare system
-bad parenting
-'rude atmosphere in the society'
And now da weaz makes the worst explanation ever: it is the fucking crazy street-pissing Finns. Great.
People should somehow get to know "native" or indigenous coultures; they are often violent. Also, the world history is violent. It is very had to change the fact that in each society, people are very capable of violence. And Finland has much lower murder rates than the US (and most of the murders are done by drunken men to other drunken men, not by mass shootings etc.).
Sorry, you misread. I have offered NO explanation for the shooting.
I have simply entitled this "Oh, those crazy Finns."
My experiences would have me call Finns crazy WITHOUT the school shooting, thus, I mention the pissing and drinking.
Please don't substitute your own assumptions for my own.
Sorry.
But if you want to make this a discussion about WHY I find Finns and Finnish culture crazy, then we can go that route.
But given my experiences and the delicate national identity and defensiveness of most Finns that I have encountered towards the opinions of ulkomaalaisia regarding their country, I would be careful about what you wish for.
Btw, the killer is now dead. Time of death 10:15 PM, in the hospital, after being brain dead for several hours. Lucky bastard.
Thank you, anonymous, for providing the link to Eric's "manifesto". It is quite interesting. And thank you for steering the conversation back to issues more relevant.
Hmm... Sorry, I might have overinterpret your writing.
For me, nothing really interesting can be said about the such events. But I would be glad to hear your experiences about Finnish coulture/Finns/Finland.
I think the Finns are the most self critical people of all. If (and often they do) have something best in the world (PISA student results, competitiveness reports, Nokia, lowest corruption, happiest people, lowest infant mortility...), they start hushing it saying something like "yes, but you know this study had a problem in the methods". And when talking to foreigners, they always mention things such as "it's cold. metal music. melancoly. alcoholism. ugly people. stupid people. too few people. uncultured people." Self criticism is (too) easy topic of discussion for a Finn, they want to mock their country.
But yes, Finns are neurotic about outside criticism, maybe because they feel inferior to everybody else.
Please don´t call anyone crazy because one guy was completely mental. I take the words crazy finns as positive comment. Bad headline.
But sad day indeed :(
Sadly, his manifesto is really not so far from being accurate.
The weak minded misinterpreted my title as some sort of explanation for his deeds. I think it is great that he left his note: I think he explains his actions quite clearly. And unlike others, weazl does NOT think that he was crazy.
He simply rejected the norms that bind us together.
And, quite honesty, he was bold enough to leave the world that "we" have created on his own terms. Very few of us have that courage.
"Please don´t call anyone crazy because one guy was completely mental. I take the words crazy finns as positive comment. Bad headline."
This comment is about as confused as one comment can get.
If you think that "crazy Finn" is a compliment, then why complain?
Second, I have a feeling that if the title were something else, you wouldn't have clicked on it.
Third, as I have written Finns are crazy (in my opinion) without the killing.
And finally, judging by his essay, far from mental, I think he makes more sense than the pathetically predicable and shallow posts by Finns blindly defending some perceived slight to their national identity by the fact of this school schooling.
weazl thinks he is (was) far LESS crazy than both the aforementioned myrmidons AND the Friday night drunk pissers and occasional wife tosser.
"And finally, judging by his essay, far from mental, I think he makes more sense than the pathetically predicable and shallow posts by Finns blindly defending some perceived slight to their national identity by the fact of this school schooling."
Oh give me a break. This mental kid was in a typical Nietzsche-phace, which many coultured teenage angst boys go through. They think such ideas "I am a natural selector destroying the failed", "I am something god like" and "the masses are nothing compaired to me" are cool, but actually are quite unsophisticated. And most of these young people are intelligent enough to only play with the thoughts, not with guns. Maybe for an average American who has learned philosophy by watching Matrix such things sound something like "wow, I have never heard this shit before, he is a great thinker".
Frankly, I perfectly well understand that for most right-wing foreign bloggers in Finland the Finnish "community spirit" is truly a red cloth and they just totally resent the idea that for example most of us don't really like the idea of abandoning our neighbour just because of some selfish economic reasons.
But that's your own problem really. I fully well know that you and your kind (like at finlandforthought.net) share Auvinen's fundamental world view, as you guys like the idea of being at the top of the social-darwinist pyramid. The open support that he's been getting has been appalling, but not surprising.
This just makes me more confident that I really prefer this place to a lot of other places. Let's hope we don't lose what we have, as it's a great place to be -- I am not looking to living in a state of beast-like struggle for survival :-)
(And oh yes, the pissing in the street part is embarrassing. We're not the only country in the world to have such features though.)
This is hardly the first time that mindless killings occure in Finland... Sure, school massacres are rare, this was probably the second one ever in Finland. But then again, they are rare everywhere. It's not like every week there is a school massacre in the States.
A very typical Finnish scenario of mindless killings is a father taking the life of his family and himself. This happens too often. No, not every day or week or month, but countless times regardless.
Also, random killing is not rare either. It's not rare that someone loses his/her life because of some maniac.
That being said, Finland is probably one of the safest countries in the world, but that doesn't mean that shit doesn't happen here. It happens.
yeah sorry about the killings
in the best country of the world
To quote from the recently departed:
"I am prepared to fight and die for my cause," he wrote. "I, as a natural selector, will eliminate all who I see unfit, disgraces of human race and failures of natural selection."
A great pitty that he did not start as he ended, by taking his own life first.
You're being racist for saying finns are crazy.
What is your nationality? Perhaps some islamic country(crazy), UK (crazy) or even USA (totally bananas).
You are crazy and dumb for saying that.
Racist for saying Finns are crazy? Are Finns a race?
Sorry, it is a joke. And the joke is on the rabid Finnish nationalism that has you people hopping mad simply for identifying you as a group, though you people do it all the time.
The bottom line is that the only reason you people clicked on this story is because of the title, and you know nothing of the site or of the many issues addressed and countries covered, but when somebody mentions Finland, you sheeple come here by the thousands (which has happened in one 24 hour period).
And the comments reveal the idiocy of the discourse, so it is no surprise that you get the babble of Finland being the "greatest country on earth" or such foolishness (the type of idiotic statements for which Americans are famous for). And you can expect the typical list of "accomplishments" of Finland, but the idea of Finnish people being the "happiest people" is about as dumb as the idea that Finnish people piss on the streets in Helsinki because there are not enough public toilets. Does the highest suicide rate in the world speak to that happiness?
The discussion about the us versus them idea about Finnish-ness and Finnish culture really is quite boring. Finland is FAR from the best country in the world, at least to me, as it is a country that has by far the most manly, poorly mannered, and unattractive women arguably in the world (though obviously there are some wonderful and beautiful exceptions), is one of the only countries in the world that were allied with the Nazis and don't have any remorse for it (the Finns will tell you "well, we are a small country, we had no choice), a country that derives its national identity in part from the accomplishments of a shoe manufacturer turned phone seller, and have a quite long history of trying to run away from their Asian roots in a effort to show their European-ness, hence the slavish attitude towards Swedes and Swedishness (though it won't be directly admitted), but it pops up in the Finnish desire to tell you that they are part of "Scandinavia" which is NOT true, as it was historically derived from the Kingdoms in Demark, Sweden and Norway. If you want more information about the cultural debate surrounding this, the google or research the Fennoman movement. And the Finns conveniently ignore the eugenics movements of the early 20th century largely conducted by the Swedes who dominated the country to find methods to identify "Finnish" characteristics as opposed to Aryian characteristics as part of the mass eugentics movement that was going on around the world. It was clearly believed that Finns were genetically, culturally and linguistically separate and inferior to their Swedish masters, so that the later joining of Finland with the Nazis seems particularly stupid and absurd. But the Finns generally ignore this part of the story. When historians (even Finnish ones) explore this, they are widely criticized, such as what happened upon the publication of "Eugenics And the Welfare State: Sterilization Policy in Demark, Sweden, Norway, and Finland."
So the interesting thing that should be discussed is why are there far right and even Nazi supporters in Finland at all?
It makes about as much sense as having Jewish Nazis (which we also just saw recently http://tinyurl.com/26f7sk), and arouses a certain irresistable curiosity like watching a dog walking on its hind legs.
Maybe you newcomers can click around the site and find stories that address other countries than Finland. Then maybe you can expand your horizon more than what the Ilta Sanomat, Helsingin Sanomat and even what YLE tell you. Maybe then you can realize that what you call a tragedy is being repeated every day in Iraq many times.
Do you give a shit about the innocent Iraqi kids killed every day?
I didn't think so.
BFD.
Do you, Weazl, give a shit about the 8 innocent victims of the shooting in Jokela?
Not as much as 8 Iraqi kids killed by soldiers from my country killing them with guns purchased with my tax dollars for oil that will run in cars and factories.
Not as much as 8 Palestinian kids who will be shot by Israelis who are trying to dispossess their land, and who are funded and armed by my country.
Not as much as 8 Afghani kids who will be killed by foreign soldiers occupying their country and bombing them in order to get more oil.
It is sad that the 8 people were killed in Finland, but those actions will not likely occur any time soon. The actions that I talk about happen today, yesterday, next week, last week, next month, and last month. And those kids will not have their pictures posted in the Ilta Sanomat, Ilta Lahti, Metro, Helsinki Sanomat and 100 for a whole week.
I'll let you people wallow in their pain and memory. For my part, I'll try to remind you that your sympathy shouldn't simply be limited to those who share the color of your passports.
I don't understand where Weazl is trying to go with these comments. You have clearly visited Finland and know something about it.
But:
WW2...
-Finland didn't attack St. Petersburg with Nazi Germany, and if would have done so, USSR might have collapsed in the 40s. You can thank Mannerheim of this.
-Finland didn't participate in military cooperation which wouldn't have benefited it's own survival. (for instance, no official pact with Nazis)
-Finland didn't give away a single jewish Finnish citizen (probably not easy to say NO to Hitler anyway as Finland was dependent on Nazi grain etc.)
replys to other strange comments:
-Eugenics was done in many US states and European countries at the time, hardly a Finnish invention.
-Finland is the "epicenter of blondness" (I don't know why this is important to you). Actually they are much blonder than Germans, for instance.
http://cogweb.ucla.edu/ep/Frost_06.html
"Then maybe you can expand your horizon more than what the Ilta Sanomat, Helsingin Sanomat and even what YLE tell you. Maybe then you can realize that what you call a tragedy is being repeated every day in Iraq many times.
Do you give a shit about the innocent Iraqi kids killed every day?
I didn't think so."
What the ----, do you think Finnish newspapers do not cover world news? Finland had probably the biggest anti-Iraq war demonstrations per capita, and Finland had the biggest protests in the world when Anna Politkovskaya was murdered in Russia.
And what comes to the happiness reports, they are unintuitive to me as well. BUT, research says Finns ARE a happy people in general.
I don't understand where Weazl is trying to go with these comments. You have clearly visited Finland and know something about it.
But:
WW2...
-Finland didn't attack St. Petersburg with Nazi Germany, and if would have done so, USSR might have collapsed in the 40s. You can thank Mannerheim of this.
-Finland didn't participate in military cooperation which wouldn't have benefited it's own survival. (for instance, no official pact with Nazis)
-Finland didn't give away a single jewish Finnish citizen (probably not easy to say NO to Hitler anyway as Finland was dependent on Nazi grain etc.)
replys to other strange comments:
-Eugenics was done in many US states and European countries at the time, hardly a Finnish invention.
-Finland is the "epicenter of blondness" (I don't know why this is important to you). Actually they are much blonder than Germans, for instance.
http://cogweb.ucla.edu/ep/Frost_06.html
"Then maybe you can expand your horizon more than what the Ilta Sanomat, Helsingin Sanomat and even what YLE tell you. Maybe then you can realize that what you call a tragedy is being repeated every day in Iraq many times.
Do you give a shit about the innocent Iraqi kids killed every day?
I didn't think so."
What the ----, do you think Finnish newspapers do not cover world news? Finland had probably the biggest anti-Iraq war demonstrations per capita, and Finland had the biggest protests in the world when Anna Politkovskaya was murdered in Russia.
And what comes to the happiness reports, they are unintuitive to me as well. BUT, research says Finns ARE a happy people in general.
Hi lady Weazl, what bugs me is that how someone can spend/waste one´s life sitting by computer writing cynical and sarcastic comments about everything. You really should have condolence and sympathy for the victims of Jokela shooting and for their relatives. Instead you give us bullshit analyses of our culture and society. Do something useful,get a life or drop dead, and stop teaching us Finns our history. Little you do understand of it.
BTW, have you heard about countries that were allied with soviet regime during Stalin´s era and not having even slight remorse about it? USA?
Sorry, Ilmara, Finland agreed not to participate in a direct attack with Nazi Germany but to support Germany after they did. This was in order to avoid being directly responsible. Nazi Germany violated its non aggression pact with USSR through its attack via Poland. I don't know what your point is.
I know much about the eugenics movement, and claimed it was a worldwide phenomena (maybe you really should read the comments). But the point was that Finns were not the UBER but the UNTER menschen under the paradigm, which makes their endorsement and collaboration with the Nazis so sadly pathetic.
As far as blondness goes, I didn't see it in your little link, and blondness as such has little relevance to the points that I made.
Finnish papers covering the news? International news doesn't even appear in the front section of the Helsingin Sanomat, but shares itself in the B section with sports and business, hardly much to brag about.
Highest per capita demostrations against the Iraq War?
Really?
Quote, cite? Will be interested to find where you get that from.
And if someone doesn't like my comments, they are free to surf to other sites all over cyberspace. But since there is so much empathy about Jokela victims and their relatives, why don't you guys tell us about the people how died, what they were like and why they are important to you.
And, by the way, I understand Finnish culture far more than I care to, and I understand the history far more than I would like to. So try to attack another straw man, in the meantime, click on the rest of the site and let's see if you can discuss another subject other than Finns, Finnish-ness and Finland.
And as far as the idiotic comment about being allied with the Soviet Union, the United States, as miserable a history as it has, went immediately from a war against Germany to a Cold War against Russia in a matter of minutes, and it was the desire to let Russians and Germans kill each other that delayed the US' entry into the war and open a second front. And it was to show the Russians what was in store for them if they caused too much trouble that the nuclear bomb was dropped in Japan.
So, get real, the US has many, many crimes to account for. Collaborating with the USSR isn't really one of them.
Sorry.
"Finland had the biggest protests in the world when Anna Politkovskaya was murdered in Russia."
Really? Where was this?
And what does this have to do with Iraq or innocent children?
Hmmm. Strange.
BTW, how difficult do you think it is to get Finns riled up against Russia? Methinks not so hard at all.
Since you are a scholar and a wise man, you probably are aware that eugenics was invented by the americans? So in a way, you as a nation are responsible for the horrors of holocaust and that makes the US number one terrorist nation in the world -- the true axis of evil.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2003-09-14-book-usat_x.htm
USATODAY.com about eugenics.
I was talking about the siege of Leningrad, in which Finland refused to do the final attack. In that direction, Finland only conquered territories that it had before the Winter War. And any way, in the early 40s there was no information about Holocaust (because it had not yet happened); Nazi Germany had no worse carma than USSR (which where the only possible "allies").
Excuse me, if Swedes have been racist against Finns... And have said Finns are inferior... This proves what? Anyway, if you are talking about "Nordic" features, I think the first two are 1) blonde hair 2) blue/green/light eyes. See the link yourself. Linquistically Finns are not Nordic, genetically yes pretty much. But anyway, this is not very interesting.
"Really? Where was this?"
In front of the Russian Embassy.
"And what does this have to do with Iraq or innocent children?"
No more than Jokela murders have to do with world politics.
Honestly, you should have had more than a superficial look into Finland. There is a lot of civilian/organisational activity going on. For instance the environmental and developing country movement are quite strong in Finland.
If you look at the Finnish knowledge of other countries it is clearly good. Young Finns speak several languages and travel a lot. If you would give a blank European map, Finns could probably fill it with countries and capitals much better than say, people from Central Europe. Actually, I think most Finns could spot Angola in Africa, but many/most French cannot spot Finland in Europe.
If you watch Finnish news from television, 90 % of the most important news are foreign. Not the case in the USA: I hardly saw any headlines about foreign events.
But if you want to believe Finns are only alcohol-drinking savages interested only in their own country, go ahead.
"Since you are a scholar and a wise man, you probably are aware that eugenics was invented by the americans? So in a way, you as a nation are responsible for the horrors of holocaust and that makes the US number one terrorist nation in the world -- the true axis of evil."
See the mistake that you make is that I am as blindly as nationalist as many of you are. OF COURSE, I know these things and if you were simply smart enough to click the "EUGENICS" tab on THIS site, you'd learn a whole lot more about eugenics and the US' role in it than your USA today article.
"Excuse me, if Swedes have been racist against Finns... And have said Finns are inferior... This proves what? Anyway, if you are talking about "Nordic" features, I think the first two are 1) blonde hair 2) blue/green/light eyes. See the link yourself. Linquistically Finns are not Nordic, genetically yes pretty much. But anyway, this is not very interesting."
I have been quite clear in what I was talking about, but I will be clearer for you because you have failed to grasp this after three or four times:
I was marvelling at the comic absurdity of Finns allying themselves with Nazis while having been the SUBJECT of eugenics research trying to prove them "racially" inferior. And the complete denial of Finns of that history. I also commented on the complete desire of Finns during the 20th century and beyond, to elide over their genetic, linguistic and historical differences to conflate their histories and identities with those of Germanic descent from which Finns differ quite a bit.
And the point was related to the subject at hand: it is quite interesting to find far Right and Nazi principles in a country in which, after a Hilter had emerged victorious, themselves likely would have been wiped out. Whether you like it or not, Slavic people's European bona fides are far stronger than Finns, and that didn't stop the Nazis from cooking millions of them.
Yet, go to the Academic Bookstore and look at all the Nazi books, and you'd never know that the Nazis were bad guys at all.
And yet when some one blows people away, and turns out to be a neo-Nazi people ask with little flags all around the city at half mast, "Miksi?"
Quite silly, actually.
"Excuse me, if Swedes have been racist against Finns... And have said Finns are inferior... This proves what? Anyway, if you are talking about "Nordic" features, I think the first two are 1) blonde hair 2) blue/green/light eyes."
No, there was an entire historical discussion of which you are either ignorant of or ignoring. I posted book that makes reference to the entire eugenics movement as in a historical context, and you want to respond with some absurdity about blond hair and blue eyes, and if that was what the discussion was about a century ago. This is not serious.
"Really? Where was this?"
In front of the Russian Embassy.
And this was the largest in the world? And this proves what?
"If you look at the Finnish knowledge of other countries it is clearly good. Young Finns speak several languages and travel a lot. If you would give a blank European map, Finns could probably fill it with countries and capitals much better than say, people from Central Europe. Actually, I think most Finns could spot Angola in Africa, but many/most French cannot spot Finland in Europe.
If you watch Finnish news from television, 90 % of the most important news are foreign. Not the case in the USA: I hardly saw any headlines about foreign events.
But if you want to believe Finns are only alcohol-drinking savages interested only in their own country, go ahead."
This is the kind of defensive rambling that personally I find quite disgusting.
And the idiocy is succinctly revealed by the following quote:
"Not the case in the USA: I hardly saw any headlines about foreign events."
A thousand of you have come to this site from a US site called CNN.com. The international news that you get translated into Finnish comes from two US news services, Associated Press and Reuters.
But once again, your discourse boils down into an us/them dichotomy that I completely reject.
Rather than brag about Finns versus Americans, do you want to assess YOUR skills against MINE? Number of countries traveled? Number of languages spoken? The ability to spot Angola on a map?
Stop wrapping yourself up behind a flag and be an individual. I don't wrap myself around any flag, and it is this aspect that I find most disgusting about Finns and Finnish culture.
And I damn well know it, in fact, likely far better than you know ANY other culture.
"If you watch Finnish news from television, 90 % of the most important news are foreign"
Where do you get this bullshit from? The same book that told you that Finns are the happiest people in the world?
Get real. These comments are getting more and more absurd.
You can find my travel and language information from my CouchSurfing profile linked to my blog. :)
Well, your results that Finns would not be gentically Nordic is based on old racist/language information based on Swedish etc sources. So I see no irony, but I have understood your point the whole time. And I don't think there is such thing as genetically slavic people: you can see the blondness chart for this as well... (This is ridiculous...:)
I am sorry I don't bother to find that happiness result in English.
Here is one in Finnish. Finns were the second happiest nation in Europe after the Danish (a little exaggeration on my behalf:):
http://www.yle.fi/genreportaalit/portaali.php?genre=terveys&osannimi=ajassa_tutkittua&jutunid=8560
I know the stereotype of a melancholical finn, and I was surprised by this result.
Have you ever watched Finnish news? Who knows better? How large percentage is watching CNN daily in the US? I bet they are watching news about a closet gay senator and a fire somewhere in NYC... But nobody is interested in the world, really. (We have Iltasanomat and Iltalehti for these kind of sensation stories...)
I bet you had some very racist/unpleasent event in Finland, but this is off topic I guess.
There's no genetically Slavic people? Is there a genetically Scandinavian people? (And, Finns are not Scandinavian, it is NOT a genetic concept, but a historical one) Was it genetics that caused people to be shipped to the ovens?
If you got my point, you sure don't reveal it.
And is Europe the world? That continues your pattern of saying things that really aren't so bright.
And have I watched Finnish news?
Yes, I live here.
Do you feel just a little bit dumb?
I am not saying there are genetical groups that I know of inside Europe, but if there are collections of traits (blondness etc.) which are genetical, but don't follow the supposed genetic/racial groups boundaries, I would say the situation is more complex. For instance, we can probably say that north-easter russia is more nordic in some features than souther germany. But let's cut this bullshit discussion.
So you watch the news every day...? Can you speak Finnish?
As a 24 year old cognitive science student, I can understand the lack of awareness of certain historical discussions and discourses. That said, if you ARE in fact a cognitive science student, I would refrain from the immense amount of projection that your posts have revealed time and time again.
Your references to a blondness chart are quite absurd and do not suggest a deep understanding of anything related to eugenics as it was practiced and developed throughout the last 150 years. I am glad that you have found time to travel, but your facts about both Finland and the United States are frighteningly shallow and naive: the last thing you wrote about Americans is "I bet they are watching news about a closet gay senator and a fire somewhere in NYC... But nobody is interested in the world, really."
That line is about as dumb as it gets, and only if you clicked onto the main page instead of being stuck like a barnacle to the page about Finns and Finland, you'd find that THIS American is quite interested in the world, as are the many Americans who come on this site every day (as well as those from other countries).
This story about a spree murder in Finland is hardly important at all, and merely was put up here for a joke to those readers who know that I reside in Finland. Yet it is always entertaining to display all (especially my Finnish friends) how rabid Finnish nationalism pops its head up in ways in which they are constantly surprised. And the projections, assumptions, defensiveness, aggressiveness that the Finns display whenever they feel that the image of Finland is attacked is quite humorous to watch.
And, as I mentioned, the over 1,000 Finns who have visited this site over the last 24 hour period is a perfect testament to the obsessiveness that Finns feel about how people think of "their" country.
Worth quite a laugh.
Thanks.
And yes, I speak at an advanced intermediate level of Finnish, as well as French, Spanish, Italian, German, basic Czech, basic Arabic and basic Swedish, as well as an advanced reading knowledge of Sumerian and Akkadian.
And your point is?
Hi lady Weasel (da weaz sounds like a black kid from da slum)- I really enjoy reading your arrogant comments. You are getting pissed off, aren´t you? You are seriously in love with yourself, right? Bragging with your travels, liguistic achievements and so on. Get off from your cyberworld and try the real life. You are definitely a man/ woman who can´t be wrong about anything. Lawyer´s mindset, right? Soooooo pathetic.
Pissed off? Not at all. I am quite amused by people like you. I think you're quite pissed off, actually. Especially when you come back to a site where you feel that the host is so arrogant.
In love with myself? Why not? Should I not be? Are you? Unlikely. You're Finnish, so maybe you are brought up to only focus on your flaws, stay quiet, not say anything positive about anything or anything, just shut up and love the flag.
No, this post is one of my most fun so far by far!
Sorry, I didn't bring up the issue about linguistic achievements and traveling, but responded to the idiotic generalizations made by one of your peers about comparing Finns and Americans. But when we get into specifics, guess who comes up short?
Quite funny little people you are. I haven't had this much fun since beating up on the silly geese at the right wing moron magnet, frontpagemag.com
But I guess I understand why YOU are so angry. Wasn't it you who wrote:
"Do something useful,get a life or drop dead, and stop teaching us Finns our history. Little you do understand of it."
I guess I DO understand your history and your culture.
Ooops. Another myth bites the dust.
Here's a hint: if you don't like me or my site and recommend that I get a life, you can remove YOURSELF from your computer and go play in the forest.
;-)
Heh, this argument is staying at the right track... :)
"And those kids will not have their pictures posted in the Ilta Sanomat, Ilta Lahti, Metro, Helsinki Sanomat and 100 for a whole week."
And this is advanced intermediate? Lahti means bay in Finnish, lehti means newspaper. Iltalehti is not Ilta Lahti. Helsinki newspaper is written "Helsingin Sanomat" which means genetive of Helsinki.
I know these kind of little spelling errors do not reveal your language skills, but I have not yet seen any proof of your Finnish skills...
Voidaanko me jatkaa "väittelyä" Suomeksi jos osaat kieltä riittävän hyvin...?
I have not read the eugenics book and I am not interested in it. I was saying Finns are mainly genetically Nordic, and I know I am right. Anyway, it is not important.
Talking about the news: I know there are some coultured americans who follow the international news. But if you are accusing the Finns not following international news, I guess I have to compaire them with "americans" (which is too big group anyway, but we cannot compaire Finns with you...). Which leaves me to the conclusion that actually Finnish people follow international news quite a lot.
"I guess I DO understand your history and your culture."
You know some bits of our history and know some parts of the coulture, but really understanding is a different thing. You know, there has been a nearly constant debate about Finnish role in WW2, and Swedish and other 'outsider' comments just sound very naive and teenage-like. And there is a lot of criticism about Finnish alcohol habits: it is just too obvious to make fun about it.
And the references to Iraqi children which have nothing to do with this tragedy - they are very naive as well.
Anyway, I have no time for this discussion, particularily because you clearly want to take it to purely ad hominem level. Have you visited more countries than I, by the way? :)
Yeah, I made spelling errors occasional spelling errors in Finnish, and if you go through how many times I made reference to Helsingin Sanomat, you'll find that maybe I have made that mistake just once. If it makes you feel better to continue in Finnish, feel free.
Of course, you will not read the book. Of course you will "know you're right" simply because you feel so. Of course, you would rather point me to some webpage of why people are different, and suggest that explains Finland's history. This is exactly as I suggested: a shockingly poor understanding of the things that you talk about with such authority. It was quite clear from the start.
As far as ad hominem goes, I have not engaged in much of it. I have not projected my fantasies onto you people, unlike you who seems has laughingly made errors about me post after post.
And the comments about Finnish history and Iraqi children are far from naive. And as you being a 24 year old who has demonstrated such limited knowledge of any area that you have discussed so far, you wouldn't have the capacity to know what a naive historical discussion and political debate would look like. There is too much for you to still cover yet.
Anyway, onto other irrelevant matters, I have travelled to over 50 countries but haven't bothered to count how many you've been to. But I guess you need to grasp for straws after being embarrassed on the language thing. And a typo about lahti versus lehti doesn't obviate your error.
And the Iraqi children DO have something to do with the discussion. And don't assume simply that because you can't follow the connection, that there isn't one.
But I am glad you are terminating the discussion. There really hasn't been much intellectual exchange in this "debate." And your admission of "not being interested" in the eugenics information is a perfect exemplar of why it has been a waste of time. Other than, as I mentioned, a perfect example demonstrating how fervently some Finns are willing to defend things about which they know so little.
Moi.
And on the subject of language and grammar:
"Hmm... Sorry, I might have overinterpret your writing." This should be in the past tense, thus the correct form is "overinterpretED"
"coulture" doesn't have an "o".
"melancoly" has an "h"
"replys" is spelled with an "ies"
and so forth and so on. You have made many mistakes in spelling and grammar. So when a language is not one's aidinkieli, one should have a bit of tolerance. But you have represented yourself as a "master" of English on that link you provided me, where I never made such similar claim about Finnish. So please don't throw stones when you live in a glass house.
This is the level of the discourse that you want to stoop to. It is frankly embarrassing for me to have to offer you this example of your behavior and the intellectual emptiness of your effort. So let's just end the discussion politely, and without those "ad hominems" that you spoke about. ;-)
:)...
I knew you would pick on this. :)
But yes, I would like to see an example of your Finnish, just for curiosity. I mean you have written only separate words, and I can look only for the spelling in that case, not because I would like to be anal with spelling errors. Actually I think it is an honour if someone bothers to learn such a marginal language.
Bye for now...!
Sorry, play time is over. This is not a site to impress people with my language skills, but rather to discuss political events. This has not really happened on this long thread, sadly, when an interesting discussion could have popped up at any time.
And don't be honored that I have bothered to learn Finnish. I did not learn it for you.
Cheers.
Älkää viitsikö hyvät ihmiset edes vastata reppanan kirjoituksiin. Se on todennäköisesti tyypillinen läskipersejenkki, jolla on joku tutkinto "laadukkaasta" jenkkiyliopistosta jossa se on lukenut jonkun paskafilosofiakirjan. Sen johdosta se kuvittelee tietävänsä kaiken ja tuntee itsensä yli-ihmiseksi. Hmmm... tulee jotenkin Jokela mieleen...
No, rather a typical ignorant person hiding behind a language to say what he or she is too chickenshit to say when they think they will be understood. Once again, your typical imaginary projections get the best of you. Far from fat assed, you say this so you can try to ignore the truth in what I have said. Keep circle jerking yourselves into thinking that you're not as pathetic as this conversation has exposed some of you. And yes, this should bring Jokela to mind, for it is this type of idiocy that he spoke about when shooting those people, now isn't it?
Miksi?
Maybe miksei?
What more Finnish fantasies do you have to justify this pathetically ignorant rant?
Referring to the discussion above:
I find it interesting (and sad) you underline your individualism but label a country and its citizens as a whole.
At the risk of sounding a finn as you label us: if you are not happy in Finland, why don't you leave to a better and happier country? You seem, atleast to some extent, educated, surely you have a choice of where to work and live.
As you clearly know finnish history better than any of us please explain the following and we'll then know better:
What other choice did Finland have to stay independent than to obtain supplies from Germany in WW2?
Was the desire of not being occupied by Russia stupid? If yes, why are you concerned about your country trying to "democratise" the rest of the world? Shouldn't we have fought back?
I for one, am proud of being born in a small country that has managed to stay relatively independent (the presidency of Kekkonen is the reason for the word "relative") next to a superpower as the USSR was. That doesn't, again in my opinion, make me a flag-waving finnish redneck.
Yes, I have glanced at your blog and it's dealing with important issues, and when compared to them, any shooting incident is unimportant. So why did you pay any attention to this one? Why do you give a damn if you clame you don't?
Which country doesn't focus on an internal matter at stake?
When it comes to covering international affairs, Finland's serious media, for example Helsingin Sanomat, (of course this is in my opinion) not only covers the news but the events that led to them. So I don't think there are any problems there.
And yes, this is futile, I have my opinions and you have yours, that's the basis of any discussion. This comment, or any of your posts for that matter, won't change a thing in the world but try to see things from a general perspective before stating your beliefs as facts.
I underline my individualism, and as I have said numerous times, use the term "Finn" and "Finnish-ness" because of the overwhelming tendencies of Finns to do the same. If you don't want me to call you Finns, please stop defining yourself as such, and pretending that you can speak for others.
Yes, I can leave. And why I stay and where I go is only my business. In the meantime, if I have an opinion about anything, I am free to express it, including my opinion about this country and its culture.
As I have already written, I paid attention to this because it was a little joke for those who knew that I reside in Finland. I did not know that CNN would link to it, and I did not know that it would be flooded by Finns so insecure about whatever someone is saying about the country. Thus this long and rather boring discussion filled with idiotic comments suggesting that I might not know about the country and all the other simple minded comments that one expects when dealing with the often facile assumptions that many Finns project when talking to foreigners.
As far as the Helsingin Sanomat goes, we will agree to differ. I think it is a horrible paper that leaves Finns as ignorant about issues as I often encounter them in person. You can have your opinion, but I find the international section simply a translation from the AP and Reuters, and almost no original reporting internationally, and that which is done is pretty stupid, in my opinion.
I try to see things as I see things. If do more than "glance" at this blog, you'll find a wide variety of issues covered. Far, far, far more than your beloved Helsingin Sanomat, for example. And I am just one person, not a head of a national newspaper. Just on that simple comparison alone, I, if defending that paper, would be ashamed.
By the way, how many articles in Helsingin Sanomat have addressed the candidacy of Ron Paul? How many articles take a serious look at problems with the official story of September 11th, 2001?
I don't state my opinions as facts, but readily acknowledge them as my opinions. Problem is, in my experience, many Finns ask for those opinions, but in reality only want to hear the bullshit that supports their own notions about the questions about which they ask. And this is not ALWAYS the case, but is frighteningly and shockingly common. And when I offer ideas that I posit are more than just opinions, I offer sources and cites. This is what academic or reasoned discussion should look like.
Anyway, yes, you're free to have your opinion and I am free to have mine. But as far as changing the world goes, we may not be able to do much, but this website strives to offer people access to material they don't often have access to, the information that your Helsingin Sanomat will NEVER print.
And given that over 1,500 of you made your way to this site in a 24 hour period, I would not be so dismissive of someone's ability to "change the world" or at least engage with others. Sadly, this has not been the most exciting intellectual exchange that has occurred on this site, but maybe when some of you decide that this little tabloid story isn't so important and something else might be worth discussing, then the intellectual content of the posts might be raised.
Such would be warmly welcomed.
And as far as your historical revisionism goes, Finland did FAR MORE than just get supplies from Germany, but actively plotted and planned with the Nazis launch on Russia which started the "Continuation War." This was simply a desire of Finland to make up for losses from the Winter War. Trying to sell it as some economic pact is simply bullshit, as does the fact that you make no reference to the Finnish concentration camps enacted to hold Russians. And sure, they were not extermination camps, but they were concentration camps just the same.
And I for one am completely against the United States trying to "democratize" the world. The United States can't even democratize the United States, so once again, you are barking up the wrong tree with that.
As far as your "being proud" of Finland remaining independent, get over it. Finland wasn't occupied not because of any actions it took, but because of the power of the United States and NATO behind it. Finland, during the interim, ass kissed between the East and the West, and contributed new words to the dictionary because of its particular notoriety for ass kissing in that regard.
Had Roosevelt, Churchill and Stalin tossed up Finland to the Soviets instead of Czechoslovakia, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Yugoslavia, Hungary et al. here wouldn't have been a damn thing Finland could have done to stop it.
So you can keep thanking the vets, hating the Russians, and telling tales of how Finland somehow has a particularly noble history, but I, for one, reading about a country shifting between being dominated by Sweden and Russia for hundreds and hundreds of years, essentially ending with the end of the Kekkonen era, and emerging from the recession of the 90's really haven't found so much to justify the wild arrogance and nationalism that you find in present day Helsinki and Finland.
But I do see the myth making, the revisionism, the propaganda and the nationalism all around. In fact, it is the type of national obsession that I have found with the Japanese and the Israelis, maybe even more so.
Anyway, as I said much, much earlier, I was free to express my opinion, but didn't think that people would be too happy to hear them. But if you want to break out of this slavish paradigm of "Finnishness" then talk about YOURSELF as a person, rather than the stupid little stereotypes that I so often hear on an all to frequent basis.
But, as I also said, perhaps the best thing would be to offer an opinion on another thread, and thus prove that you are interested in other topics as well. Actions speak much louder than words.
You were right, not many stories on Ron Paul or the 911 conspiracy:
-Ron Paul: nothing on the candidacy but a funny comment from 1998: "Yhdysvaltain kongressin edustajainhuoneessa on yksinäinen kultakantaan paluun kannattaja, texasilainen republikaani Ron Paul. Vuonna 1998 Paul otti kultakysymyksen esiin ja kysyi Greenspanilta, pitäisikö kultaa hyödyntää kansainvälisessä rahajärjestelmässä.
Greenspan vastasi olevansa samaa mieltä monessa asiassa Paulin kanssa. Ongelma oli vain Greenspanin mukaan siinä, että "kaikki muut maailman ihmiset ovat tästä asiasta eri mieltä kuin me kaksi". "
Then again I don't really see a point to cover internationally a candidate whose best result in the polls for the republican presidential primaries was at best 6% in Texas and much less in most of the other states. Which press covers every candidate of every party of a foreign country?
Here's where I got my info on the polls, not interested to dig in more:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_Republican_Party_%28United_States%29_presidential_primaries%2C_2008
-As for the conspiration theories: 4 stories on the WTC (not serious as the issue is not serious :) )
If you're interested on the government covering up this conspiration, check out these pages for the ultimate truth:
http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=911_morons
http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=af07
(be sure to check out the additional proof, the link is at the bottom of the latter mentioned page)
Yeah, that was pathetic for a newspaper, I wonder which respectable newspaper of your choice covers fully the nazi military bases on the moon (there's a lot people who believe in them too) and the candidacy of Vladimir Konstantinovich Bukovsky for the russian presidential elections.
Your blog does cover many interesting subjects but they are better covered on other sites and newspapers. Helsingin Sanomat and most of other finnish newspapers (all the real ones, forget the papers whose names start with "Ilta ") do cover the war in Iraq, the pakistani election, the actions of the US government and Venezuela. The difference between any respectable newspaper and your and most bloggers is that they atleast try to write down the facts as they are without mixing their own views in them. Besides, everything cannot be covered in the same media at the same time, thank the holy being of your choice we have internet where anyone can bitch about anything irrelevant and occasionally find some real information. There's also information (read "opinions") that you publish that HS will never print as you cleverly pointed out, not all the world is as "screw the US government that we elected to power" -centric as you seem to be in your writings.
I'm sorry if you understood I was/am expressing the collective views of my country as I am talking for myself here. I don't give a flying f whatever you call me or anyone else. When you would say "russians", "french", "men" or "humans", you do refer to a group of people that is predefined by the word's use in the past, you do realise that, don't you? By generalising the few finns you know , you claim to know all of us. That's like me telling all the citizens of the US are morons as I've met many assholes on my trips to the US, I've read US newspapers , Bush is the worst president in US history and I'm arguing with an american close-minded weaz. The thing is I've also met intelligent US citizens and I know that a few bad examples don't constitute a nation. There's idiots in evry part of the world, no culture as a whole is better than the one next to it on a non-economic or political level. I agree it's your personal business why you live in a country you seem to be disgusted about, but it sure is funny as hell.
I also found your post thru CNN, as I was wondering why the US media was interested about the death of these victims when they could be interested on the war in Iraq, for instance. Some of the stuff in the british media was also rather amusing.
To end this post, I again beg you to enlighten me on the finnish history so I would not be wrong about it again. I myself was taught in the french education system until high school. The weird thing is that also in France they seemed to agree that Finland was not a fascist or nazi country but only needed the supplies from Germany to stay independent. I guess they were also brainwashed as we have been.
This bitching back and forth has been amusing.
Best regards and good luck on your crusades. Maybe some day, when I'll have time (I know, I wasted loads of it on this but what the heck, it's been fun), I will read your latest posts thoroughly and comment, for now I only hope to hear the real finnish war history from you.
P.S. Sorry for typos in advance
First off, as far as assumptions go, you get again fall into the trap. You have absolutely no idea how many Finns I know, how long I have lived here, et cetera, but that doesn't stop you from suggesting that I know a "few" Finns.
As far as your history of Finland goes, I already answered the question, but maybe you didn't see the post.
And as far as the "coverage" of issues go, I don't "mix" my opinions with the "facts." The stories come from a wide variety of sources, I simply insert my opinions in the titles.
But while wrong on these points, your post is far more respectful and informed that many of the others. But while I appreciate the 911 links, this site has 166 911 links, so there is not really much comparison, eh? As far as Ron Paul goes, perhaps if you got more news from sources other than HS and the mainstream media, you'd have far greater scepticism regarding the polling numbers that you have just quoted. You probably believe that Bush won an election don't you?
Helsingin Sanomat, and (in my opinion), most Finns do. ;-)
Again, I can't speak for others but in my opinion Bush lost slightly on the first election and won on the second one. I see the problem is in your electoral system that allows this. Nevertheless he did get loads of votes first in the primaries and then in the actual elections, these votes came from the US citizens. Right now his approval rates are down but at some point atleast about a half of your nation (that voted) thought Bush was the best choice. Sure your electoral system sucks, infact not many things in your country's system actually don't suck. If a majority of your compatriotes agrees with us on this, why not change the system?
As for the history, where did you give an alternate solution to what happened in the past? I spotted your claim on the absurdity of the alliance but you didn't really give any arguments on how it should have been. I'm making assumptions here but I guess you don't see a Soviet occupation as a bad thing as you're left-wing? (Ok, I'm provoking you just a bit.)
"You have absolutely no idea how many Finns I know, how long I have lived here, et cetera, but that doesn't stop you from suggesting that I know a "few" Finns." Still you cannot claim you everything about the culture and the history without backing your opinions with some factual evidence. I personally have lived more than 10 years in Andorra but never could I claim to know everything about the country or its population. Like I mentioned before, I'm just amazed you are eager to jump to conclusions with a limited, no matter how vast but still limited, experience and generalise on a nation level while underline your own individuality. Me calling you a KKK redneck that is eager to nuke Iran and Syria after destroying Irak and Afganistan would be pretty stupid, wouldn't it? You still seem to see yourself at a higher level,( you are entitled to your opinion, I'm not denying that), to be able to make the same kind of conclusions, be it this topic, the dollar sinking, or the wrongdoings of your country while policing the world.
And as for the "mainstream media", like I told you, I got the information on wikipedia, you are free to go and correct the mistakes in there (looking forward to it) if you can back your writings up with some fact. I personally do not rely on any particular form of media, that is the reason I ended up on this site, but mainstream or not, I like to see both sides to whatever I am reading about. That's why I'm discussing this with you, maybe we both get to learn something, if of nothing else, about ourselves.
By the way, did you find that russian candidate and the lunar bases on your media of choice? If not, must be a bad source of information.
So I'm gonna go and get drunk to throw my girlfriend off the balcony while you put on your KKK-robe, burn some crosses and vote for Bush (again). Apparently that's how the world is, all nations are one.
"Me calling you a KKK redneck that is eager to nuke Iran and Syria after destroying Irak and Afganistan would be pretty stupid, wouldn't it?"
Maybe you should simply ask other posters on this site how accurate it is.
As far as getting drunk tonight, maybe you will, maybe you will not. But one thing is for sure, many, many of Finns at least in downtown Helsinki will be tonight, and far too many will be throwing up and pissing in the streets for my tastes, but if you think this is the extent of my understanding of Finns and Finnish culture, maybe that can explain why you would be crazy enough to think that I would wear a KKK robe or vote for Bush. This is not at all how I see the world, and it is your projection, and based on NOTHING that I have written, that can give you such an errant view of the world. And I have responded to your historical claims, but you have not really responded back. But it really is not so important to me to keep discussing this Finnish history. The response was simply addressing the point that I do know the culture and enough of the history to feel comforatable saying it. And if you feel that you could live in a place for ten years and not understand the culture, to me, that is pretty sad. I would hope that I would be integrated enough in a culture to know it quite well.
By that measure, I imagine you cannot know too many places at all.
Cheers
There is no culture anyone can claim to fully know. I didn't say I didn't know the culture but that I cannot claim to know every aspect of it, as my background isn't based on it. I've been merely observing it and participated to the extent it has been possible for any person coming from the outside. Are you fully integrated in finnish culture? -If yes, why do you base your arguments solely on Helsinki? Maybe you live and spend your time in Kallio, then I fully understand your view :) And if yes, how come you are not talking about the "normal" non-puking and non-pissing finns that do constitute the majority of our country (which is not limited to the center on Helsinki at night)?
I guess the reason you will not come back to me with the facts on the history part of our discussion is that you don't have them.
Or the simple questions on the media you follow, you asked me about the HS coverage of your candidate and the 911 conspiracy theories and I answered, why wouldn't you do the same for me as you claim your sources are far more superior?
You also left the poll results unanswered even though it would be easy to indicate a non-biased link claiming otherwise if this was a fact and not hearsay or merely your own opinion...
From your writings I can clearly see you are no Bush supporter or a member of the KKK, but why would generalisation your exclusive right? It was a useless attempt to employ sarcasm to make my point.
No, sorry, I don't live in Kallio, far from it.
As I have said three times, I have answered your questions regarding Finnish history. If you don't want to read it then so be it, or pretend it isn't there, then that is your business.
If you want to see my sources on the issues, go to the main pages and click on the links that I have provided. There you can read what is written. When you have an informed basis for discussion, then we can see who makes more sense.
Until then, it's just pissing in the wind.
And regarding your silly little comments about Finns, some of the people I am closest to are Finns. And I don't need to talk about them. In fact, I talk to them. In fact, some of them read this thread and we laugh together.
Generalization is not my exclusive right, as is demonstrated by this thread. On that note, I would suggest you not try to say who is a "normal" Finn and who is not. But as I have said many times, it would be great if some of you could show the slightest interest in other threads other than what is Finnish or not, who is a Finn or not. It is quite boring that so many conversations with Finns boils down to this blabber.
Still ignoring my questions on the polls :) and the politics of your country you want me to be interested in.
No, you did not give any alternatives on the history issues, but let's just leave it at that.
It was you who rose the issue of suicide rates etc, and telling us what a finn is like. Hope those finns close to you won't get drunk and toss you off the roof or be suicidal. It was the rest of us that said we are not all the same.
Go ahead and ignore these questions once more. Why not have a logical discussion instead of ignoring every point your counterparts make?
I am not ignoring your questions about the polls, as I have said FUCKING CLICK THE LINKS AND YOU WOULD HAVE YOUR ANSWER!
Here's what you would find, for example:
http://weazlsrevenge.blogspot.com/2007/07/uncovering-part-of-fix-on-ron-pauls.html
And regarding the history issue, your answer is right here:
"Finland did FAR MORE than just get supplies from Germany, but actively plotted and planned with the Nazis launch on Russia which started the "Continuation War." This was simply a desire of Finland to make up for losses from the Winter War."
And I have not made up the stats about Finnish suicide but offered it as a response to someone telling me that Finland has the happiest people in the world (a claim that the simpleton later admitted was bullshit, even by his own terms).
Reading is fundamental. But this is a waste of time. You, specifically and in general, are simply too lazy to do the legwork needed to have an informed discussion. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. I have given easy tabs for you people to click and read on a number of subjects, but if it doesn't concern Finland, it seems that you are simply too fucking lazy to do it.
Enough. This topic has wasted far too much of my time for what it is worth. Think what you want, this conversation truly and utterly is beneath me.
Arrogance at its best.
Cheers.
From your comments on your post on Sicko:
"Da Weaz said...
Thanks a lot, Sparrows. You do a great job over on that site. They are a bit too threatened by me so they erase all of my posts, no matter how benign. Like rightwing fascists, they need to control all of the discourse. Though they are somewhat progressive, their need to censor people and ideas makes me have nothing but contempt for them.
They think that it is necessary to censor people to have intelligent discussion. Other then striking spam about some widgets or something completely unrelated to the topic, I NEVER delete posts. It is not necessary."
You NEVER delete posts, how about twice already today as I am asking questions that are too difficult for you to answer? Would you by any chance be lying? Sure you could argue my comment was completely unrelated, which it was not as it merely pointed out inconsistencies on your statements and issues you raised to the comments section.Did you feel a "need to control all of the discourse" like "rightwing fascists"? <- your words, not mine
Done atleast some of my homework (it's a huge blog, you really have been working on it, can't read it all in one day when you also have other stuff to do), have you?
Here's my comment again, glad I kept a copy of the second one on my pc:
ukk0 said...
Lasse Pitkäniemi, doesn't ring a bell, on which recognized journals has he been published so far? Is he unbiased? -Don't think so.
Ok, maybe some internet focused people have not been polled, still don't believe Ron Paul has enough voters to become president, we'll see next year (when you'll bring up a new conspiracy theory to keep yourself happy). Second, how come all the companies doing the polling ended up with roughly the same results while being selective?
Also remember to check out Maddox and his posts on the 911 conspiracy on thebestpageintheuniverse.com, it might actually make you think.
That didn't concern Finland in any way, care to comment?
And one more thing on the history part which you initially brought up: the shelling of Mainila (Mainilan laukaukset). Just because you ignore facts to make your point doesn't make the facts disappear. Besides, who in their right mind would assume that a small, virtually powerless country would take the USSR on a military conflict at their own will? Not me. But hey, you're right: fascist Finland marched to the front to conquer the USSR, not once did they consider the difference in size, wealth or power between the two countries. They didn't fight for their independence, that's all BS. Does that REALLY make any sense to you?
You are right on the arrogance part, that's what makes me come back here. You claim you know what you don't. That's what makes your writing funny. For some real information I will be checking out RELIABLE and UNBIASED sources to form my own opinions on issues. For laughs, I will keep on coming here.
Best regards.
By answering with more than "you are not worthy of my answers" you'll make me disappear, that's a promise.
Again, these are issues you brought up. If you can't handle differing comments, why not disable comments or post a disclaimer where you state you only allow positive commenting?
Yes, that has been my policy, but you and these others have become extremely boring trolls. The idea that you can find "unbiased" sources reveals you as pathetically naive.
You have combed through the archives and been on here for hours then post some link to OpEd news as an example of challenging my sources. It is a pathetic example of self selection.
It is only the idiocy of this Finnish nationalism that I despise that would cause you to assume that you know who Lasse Pitkäniemi is. So fucking what? You don't know him. Does he know you? Does anybody? You simply gloss through the ideas expressed therein.
A waste of time.
Just like your idiocy about some website teaching me about 911. Instead of telling me to go there, why don't you explain what I might learn.
You likely won't bother because your posts have shown you to be intellectually lazy and simply bent on some personal piss contest than really engaging in any search for truth or true intellectual debate.
And I can't waste my time with that bullshit.
So you can troll here all you want telling yourself that you've proven some point. The only point that you've proven to me is how slavishly brainwashed you are in believing you'll find unbiased sources, your predictable fixation on Finland and all things Finnish, and your personal pettiness in wasting your whole day begging for my attention without the slightest evidence that you've learned something in all of the dozens and dozens of articles that you have skimmed.
Pathetic.
The argument that Finland, in joining Germany to launch a unilateral war against the Soviet Union, was fighting for its independence is simply stupid.
After the Winter War, Finland and Germany conspired to invade the USSR (and did). Sorry if your high school education didn't teach you that basic fact. That attack is nicely labeled "The Continuation War" to suggest that Finland didn't initiate the conflict (behind the coattails of Germany).
Anyway, as I said, this is simply too boring.
It is not my job to teach you the basic history of your country. Buy a book and read about it.
Hi lady Weasel, just came back from the forest. It was fun, try it yourself some time- don´t take your laptop with you though.
Few things about the WW incident: After the winter war:
-Finland had lost roughly 10% of its area, far more of its cultivated area
-had evacuated half a million its citizen, sixth of its population
-Baltic states been occupied(oh yeah, they wanted it...)
-Sweden ignored Finland´s efforts to seek for a defensive alliance, for their cynical leaders it was very convenient to have a buffer state between them and the nice uncle Stalin´s boys
-Finnish civilian plane shot down
-Finnish cities heavily bombarded 25. & 26.6
So that period was hardly a stabile nor peaceful time. And now, sixty-six years later, you have the nerve to teach us, what the politicians those days should have done? Stay neutral? How? Did you deeply understand the life Baltic States during the Soviet regime?
Year 1940-41 nobody had the idea how terrible the holocaust would be in the fufure. Instead, there were serious rumours about the Stalin´s pogroms 37-38. As you know, seeking shelter under Germany´s wing was a very logical option. Finland and Germany had been very tight, Germany offering military education during the Civil War and finally liberating Helsinki from the reds. Even king was selected- guess what? From Germany.
And we should have remorse? To whom should we present our apologies? To you? No one apologized my grandma when grandpa got killed in the Winter War, leaving two orphans. Literally fighting for independence. And it was no easier situation during the Continuation War. Also the War of Lapland was quite tragic episode.
We have had our share of tragedies, so we really don´t get too hilarious, when foreigners tell us what we should and should not have done in the past. At least if they are Swedes. Nice people otherwise, no slavish attitudes here.
Then about worshipping the vets: if you only had a slightest idea, how the society was after the war, you would get my point: left wing people accusing them for attacking peace loving and friendly Soviet Union.
It´s just fine that they get the credit for having kept us independent. The Finnish army blocked twice the massive attacks of one biggest armies of its time, both 1940 and 1944. Something to marvel at and something to appreciate.
Your barking does not change that. It´s so easy to be right when you are in stronger´s side. Finland has seldom, or ever, had that opportunity.
Thanks to Ukko for neutral and clever argumenting.
"It is only the idiocy of this Finnish nationalism that I despise that would cause you to assume that you know who Lasse Pitkäniemi is. So fucking what? You don't know him. Does he know you? Does anybody? You simply gloss through the ideas expressed therein."
If you would think for a change without jumping to conclusions with your own assumptions, you would understand that I didn't ask about the guy because he's finnish and I would therefore assume to know him. I asked on his publications to see if he's a credible source, I myself found blog entries but nothing on google scholar for example. His article without any sources remains an opinion , just as our discussion here (a discussion you've proven yourself unable to participate in). (I would like to clarify I have nothing against him or his views, and in fact agree on most of it on a THEORETICAL level, in a perfect world libertarianism or anarchism would be the perfect forms of society, too bad we're not perfect as societies nor as humans, still opinions are opinions.)
You systematically ignore facts to make your point. The source of oped.com was selected among the sources of articles I checked out as you invited me to do. It was just one example of the sources you use.
I'm sorry I don't praise you as you seem to expect. I find your reasoning and especially your arguments (which are basically in the classic "reductio ad Hitlerum"-form) faulty. Did you win any cases using the same techniques when you practiced law?
As promised, I rest my case.
Sorry, lady Weasel, forgot to give a link to current debate. Here:
http://jokisipila.blogspot.com/2006/12/naiivia-ruotsalaista-lytiin-ajopuulla.html
Sorry for the typos also in my former somment.
I've been wondering, would Finland made different political decisions, had we somehow been able to predict the horrors of the coming holocaust, for example? Anyway, we know NOW, so we definately should feel remorse for some of them. (But the Independence Day is coming so it's better to keep quiet about these matters for now...)
Oh yes, I see what you are aiming at, but lady Weasel accused us Finns for not showing any remorse for being allied with (nazi)Germany. And based on the knowledge the politicians had on spring 40-41, I really can not see reasons for that kind of remorse that lady Weasel wants us to show. Earlier I asked would it be just as justified for those who were allied with the soviet regime to show some remorse. How many people did nazi regime kill? How many soviet regime? My point is simply that the winner writes the history, no matter how many victims there have been on either side. It is always very simple to be on winner´s side and judge the decisions that the others made. Still, I want to make myself clear on one thing: I don´t have any kind of sympathies either towards left or right wing opinions or politic opinions whatsoever. I just want to stress that wars are miserable failures of politics, terrible personal tragedies, they´re about people suffering, widows, orphans and children without parents and parents without children. They´re definitely not computer games. Having stated this, I still want lady Weasel to understand that "knowing" a culture, does not equal to "understanding" a culture.
And "understanding" doesn't have to mean accepting everything that happens / has happened.
I bet the host of this site, busy with his many business, doesn't quite understand why we're still quarreling here. Me neither.
"I really can not see reasons for that kind of remorse that lady Weasel wants us to show."
The little troll proves my point.
And I sufficiently "know" and "understand" this "culture" to both know that it is not so cryptic, and not one that impresses me or appeals to me much at all.
Sorry.
And ukk0 thinks that credentials are somehow more important than ideas though (s)he expresses not even the slightest original idea and has provided absolutely no credentials.
A joke.
Glad to see the party still going on, and there are some seeds of sanity and reasonable thought that could possibly sprout. But it seems that such reasonable discussion can only take place with Finns,among Finns, otherwise this neurotic defensiveness seems to explode resulting in incoherent and rambling discourse.
"I bet the host of this site, busy with his many business, doesn't quite understand why we're still quarreling here. Me neither."
Sorry, but I didn´t even realize I was quarreling with somebody. I must be very dumb.
Anyways, our host, lady Weasel, seems to think that it is sufficient to address us all as- and I´m referring to his vocabulary- "silly people", "little people", "trolls" etc. Our opinions are "idiotic", "a joke", "pathetic", not to mention earlier obscenities hurled to us. That, second to my opinion, is not a very elaborate discourse.
Still: thank you for teaching us our history, culture and just about everything. I sincerely hope that you will enjoy your stay in our country, but surely won´t miss you when you decide to leave. Enjoy your superiority!
It would be a shock if you could learn anything.
And I definitely won't miss you, troll, when you decide to leave.
PS: It's not "your" country. All you do is have a passport for it. The idea that you somehow "own" it is part of your national fixation and simple mindedness. And the use of this collective "us" is part of this idiocy that I have referred to all along. So yes, your constant tendency to prove me right every step along the way, while you bitch about accurate names that I refer to you, while you in your moron state refer to me as "lady" definitely makes me feel superior to a moron troll from the University of Jyvaskyla who is under the mistaken belief that he owns a country, can speak for 5 million people and has any relation to when or if I decide to leave Helsinki.
Yes, you are a silly little pathetic fixated troll of a joke.
And I could teach you about your country and many other subjects if you weren't so damn dense.
Instead of trolling all day on this site waiting to get my attention, you should be reading and trying to learn something. Maybe if you had to pay for your education you wouldn't be stuck like a barnacle all day trolling on this site just as dumb as a box of hair.
I'm breaking my promise just to make something clear:
I myself only write under one screen name which is ukk0. I study in the University of Jyväskylä, that makes my ip adress pretty damn vulnerable, as you probably noticed, with my ip you get my home adress, my full name and probably my phonenumber with some sherlock holmes action (why i would appreciate you not spreading any of this information around, not that I would think you had the intention, but you personally are free to call if you feel the need). There just might be somebody else from around here too following the discussion but just to be sure I wanted to clarify that. If you get a lot of hits from my ip, it's because I tend to refresh pages to see if there are new comments on threads I follow.
I have not written and will not write anonymously on your thread and personally will keep from writing here anymore as I have said what I had to say (hope you don't mind me reading). Furthermore, I don't like to go on a personal level (everybody fails sometimes, as have I) and therefore do not approve any general discussion of this sort to becoming a personal insult competition. I have nothing against you as a person, I just do not agree with you.
I guess somebody else did get insulted on the agressive tone we used, I hope that person remembers this is just a discussion I apparently failed to bring forward to the next level, but what the hell, I tried.
As for the "lady weasel", I have not referred to you with that name, I was actually wondering where it came from.
Again, I will not coming back to this discussion anymore, I do mean you can call or email (you now have the adress) me if you want some kind of clarification on this. Just do not blame me on other people's actions, as for my writings do whatever you like as they come from me.
Now I'm afraid you'll think I'm just covering my ass, I have nothing to prove otherwise than my word, take it or leave it.
Over and out for the last time.
ukk0
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